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76946092 No.76946092 [Reply] [Original]

I'm sure this discussion has happened a thousand times before but I feel like bringing it up again as someone who is getting into designing a card game right now. Disclaimer at the start of the thread: I'm not a fanboy, I've dabbled in all of the big games and stopped playing all of them for one reason or another over the years, my opinions here are just based on objective analysis of the game mechanics.

Now can someone else with an ounce of game design experience/understanding please explain to me how in the FUCK this trash game yu-gi-oh is at all successful when its competition destroys it completely from every angle, and even while much better games floundered and died? What keeps this game alive when Magic alone should have just straight up killed it? I can't wrap my head around it. It's actually one of the worst games I've ever played.

>> No.76946152
Quoted By: >>76947448

Yugioh has better marketing.

Thats it.

How good your product is only accounts for about 5% of its potential success.

>> No.76946189
Quoted By: >>76946225

>It's actually one of the worst games I've ever played
You must not have played many card games then. Yugioh is actually pretty good compared to some of the dogshit that exists in the wild.

>> No.76946225

I'm sure there's plenty of half-assed indie startups that did worse, certainly, but if there are any notable games that come to mind as examples I want to hear it. Although, I'll grant you that it seems like almost every Japanese card game I see shilled here is at least as bad as YuGiOh. It's like the japs can do everything well except card games.

>> No.76946250
Quoted By: >>76946266 >>76947448

It had an anime.

>> No.76946266
Quoted By: >>76947448

This is legitimately what I feared might be the answer.

>> No.76947133
Quoted By: >>76947153

Here we go again.
>Magic has not been fun since blue was introduced. That was the first and biggest flaw.
>Magic has a billion of different formats to compensate that rotation sucks or as a distraction about how it shouldn’t exist.
>Magic has the worst art by far the point and laugh at the new set has been a running gag in /tg/ for almost a decade.
>Magic has a lot extra baggage for no reason at all except Ebonics points.
>Magic thinks that stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhj7mx1wfGM is acceptable
>Magic has the worst card quality. Damaged from the pack is not a thing in Yugioh
>Yugioh has better ratios and reprint rates.
>Yugioh actually cares to help weak but popular decks.
>Yugioh is still looked like a hobby by most of its players, and you can see it in the youtube videos.
>Finding a pedophile judge in Yugioh is quite hard unlike in Magic.
So yeah, its not as unilateral as you may think.

>> No.76947153
Quoted By: >>76947219 >>76947350

Great bait pasta but I'm here for serious discussion with people who understand game mechanics. Never claimed MtG was a perfect game by any means, I even stated in the OP I stopped playing it. But it beats the living shit out of YGO in every possible capacity. Especially in card art, what delusional schizo crackpipe are you smoking from, that's not even subjective the disparity is so huge.

>> No.76947219
Quoted By: >>76947260

Not a pasta, and your literal claim was (how in the FUCK this trash game yu-gi-oh is at all successful when its competition destroys it completely from every angle) and I just gave you exactly what you asked for, all the aspects on which Magic is falling apart like a Chinese motorcycle.
Simple fact is, you might be able to make a point about mechanics but everything else magic is straight up worse than Yugioh. And that is what makes or breaks the game.

>> No.76947260
Quoted By: >>76947293 >>76947350

If you're seriously going to be so detached from reality as to make the claim yugioh art isn't astronomically worse on average than Magics I don't really care what other crazy nonsense opinions you have anon. Half of your greentext lines are incoherent bullshit like that.

>> No.76947293
Quoted By: >>76947319

And now you are putting your hands on your ears and screaming LALALALA I can’t hear you.
And you still claim to want to have a real conversation. Anon almost every person that still plays modern day MTG is a “that guy” do you think that is good for the game overall?

>> No.76947319

>Anon almost every person that still plays modern day MTG is a “that guy”
How is that different from YGO, it's literally the same crowd of fat nerds. You reek of fanboyism, just go away. I don't even give a shit about Magic apart from the fact that it at least has the game mechanics to justify its success.

>> No.76947324
Quoted By: >>76947342

I play both games but it's impossible to take Magic seriously because the players are retarded and so are the game designers.

The fact that you think all Japanese TCGs are shit shows me that you also fit in that category: Japanese card games are competitive, have minimum amounts of RNG, and reprint cards constantly to make the game accessible.

Magic on the other hand is a game that seems hellbent in destroying its competitive environment to appeal to whales and collectors that might or might not play the game casually at home.

>> No.76947342

>and reprint cards constantly to make the game accessible.
This is the only legitimate point you've made, but it's an interesting one.

>> No.76947350
Quoted By: >>76947369 >>76947408


Yugioh appeals to a different niche, just because you think the art is better in MtG doesn't mean everyone else does. In my opinion Magic has more cohesive and "mature" art direction but it's not as soulful or fun as some of the stuff I see coming from Yugioh (I'm a Magic player). MtG art also suffers from "smudgy digital mess" syndrome far too often whereas Yugioh can look goofy but still nails the over the top anime look that the customer expected.

To answer your original question, Yugioh targets a different economic group too and so it sticks around because plenty of people can't afford Magic.

>> No.76947369
Quoted By: >>76947408

>Yugioh targets a different economic group too and so it sticks around because plenty of people can't afford Magic.
Is it that substantially cheaper at the top competitive level? I mostly played using proxy software over the internet, not buying actual cardboard.

>> No.76947408
Quoted By: >>76947472

I play both games but I'm mainly a YGO player, I think what makes me think YGO art is generally more enjoyable is the variety of themes tackled by the game, you'd never see MtG cards themed after circus artists and stuff.

However I will say I love a lot of showcase art in MtG, whenever they bring in guest artists the art is always really nice, I kinda hate that most nice MtG art is on expensive special promos tho.

>Is it that substantially cheaper at the top competitive level?

Depends, right now for standard not so much, MtG has gotten way better at reprinting cards and making powerful commons and uncommons as opossed to only mythics, however eternal formats like Commander which are the most popular ones right now can still be very expensive depending on what kind of environment you're playing on.

>> No.76947446

>he still thinks better game is a better product

>> No.76947448
Quoted By: >>76947844

It's actually not the answer...because it's backwards. What >>76946250 and >>76946152 aren't getting into is that Yu-Gi-Oh! isn't a case of a game having an anime based on it, it's a case of an anime getting a game based on it.
The manga wasn't originally about card games, it was about all kinds of games. Gambling, craps, all kinds of stuff. Then one of the arcs briefly focused on "Duel Monsters," a very thinly-disguised homage to Magic that was the subject of a game between Yugi and Kaiba. And then that arc ended and we moved on to the D&D game with Bakura.
Except the fans LOVED the Duel Monsters game. It was insanely popular, and pretty soon Kazuki just sort of resigned himself to it and went with the Duelist Kingdom arc. Remember how random the Dungeon Dice Monsters thing was? That was Kazuki trying to go back to a broader portfolio of games, but people didn't like it as much so he went ahead with Battle City because apparently all anyone cared about was card games.
The anime that most people know was the second one. The first anime actually does the whole "other games" thing, with Tamogachis and whatever the hell else. But, by the time it was time for a second attempt at an anime, they knew what people wanted, and they cut all that crap and got straight to the card games.
The Yu-Gi-Oh! card game first came out somewhere between the two anime adaptations, if I recall correctly. So, while one could argue that the second series is a case of the card game having an anime, the card game only existed because the media property was ALREADY popular enough that people wanted the card game to exist. And, don't forget, it was originally based on Magic and just called "Duel Monsters" because Kazuki didn't want the legal baggage of calling the card game in a one-off arc "Magic: the Gathering". So, really, Yu-Gi-Oh!'s success is due to the fact that Magic got an anime. Funny how that works.

>> No.76947472
Quoted By: >>76947543 >>76956583

I'm actually looking to pick up some Yugioh structure decks for fucking around with the bros and playing kitchen table mainly because the art just looks fun.

>I think what makes me think YGO art is generally more enjoyable is the variety of themes tackled by the game, you'd never see MtG cards themed after circus artists and stuff.

Magic used to be better about this but at some point the aesthetic shifted from being part of the product itself to being a cheap marketing tool for the mechanics. It's a shame WotC is outright price gating art that doesn't suck.

>> No.76947543

>It's a shame WotC is outright price gating art that doesn't suck.

Probably because MtG roots. Consider that when MtG first release it was the first time (to my knowledge) anyone tried to make a game based around trading cards, before then trading cards were literally just niche collectibles, so a lot of Magic's initial appeal would have been the cards with nice art and designs in them, contrast this to YGO, where people were looking at it as a game first and trading cards second. And where desirable collectible cards were those featured in the anime.

>> No.76947643
Quoted By: >>76957743

If your intention was to spark a flamewar then i'm sorry but I don't think there's a lotta people on this board right now eager to jump to defend WotC

>> No.76947685
Quoted By: >>76947761 >>76947802

im a fan of the extra deck as a mechanic. Having key monsters and combo pieces available at any time that you have their ingredients on the board makes for fun deckbuilding, especially because yugioh doesn't have a mana mechanic like mtg.

>> No.76947761
Quoted By: >>76947802

In yugioh, more so than any other card game I've played, making a deck that sometimes bricks is a choice, not an inevitability. The fact that all decks are expected and able to run interaction as opposed to unga bunga Savannah Lions beatdown is a good thing - "No" can be played in any deck, not just the blue ones.

>> No.76947802

I will not take away the fact that MtG's lack of consistency is acceptable in a game where games actually go on past turn 3, but an ED like mechanic (*cought* companions *cought*) would greatly benefit the game if a certain jew actually played the game he designs and knew how to balance new cards.

>> No.76947825

Yugioh has that anime look. Also some the girls are still fuckable.
Not sure what to say about mtgs "girls"

>> No.76947844
Quoted By: >>76947885

The card game was originally called Magic and Wizards in the manga, not Duel Monsters, that's the name they stuck with in the anime and American translations of the manga. Hell, the Swedish dub of the Duel Monsters anime decided to just backtrack and stick with Magic and Wizards as the name of the card game for whatever reason when no other dub of the show, the Japanese one included, did.

Also the card game in the manga isn't portrayed as some grand cultural phenomena that everyone is obsessed with like in the anime, it's simply a TCG that happens to be pretty popular and that's it. A bunch of background characters comment on how weird and annoying it is that these kids are running around the city playing card games and the final arc isn't even a TCG battle thing but another TTRPG.

>> No.76947885

> A bunch of background characters comment on how weird and annoying it is that these kids are running around the city playing card games

Happens in the DM anime too. Also to add unto the Magic and Wizards was just a MtG parody, let's remember that the character who's obsessed with the game is the rich (potentially foreign) kid, and his ace card is the blue-eyes white dragon, which I've always seen as a little notch to the fact that MtG was seen as a game for wealthy americans.

>> No.76950811

>how in the FUCK this trash game yu-gi-oh is at all successful

Zoomers actually like the combo game that it turned into

>> No.76951720
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Quoted By: >>76951743

One has Niko Aris...

>> No.76951743
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Quoted By: >>76954265

While the other has Madame Verre. The question that you should be asking is how MTG is still around.

>> No.76954265


>> No.76954448

I played casual YGO back around, christ, 2005 or 2006. I bought some premade decks, tweaked them slightly, and played them against each other. It was fun. In particular, I like the "trap card" mechanic, but I also like how it leans into the idea of explosive combos. It feels like MTG arcade mode.

I've never played competitive, but as a casual observer, it seems like the metagame is disproportionately defined by BADLY BADLY designed cards. It's not just that they're overpowered, it's that they're way too long (too many words) and they change the nature of the game in convoluted yet un-interactive ways. I would never, ever play YGO competitively, but as a casual game I see the appeal.

I never got way into the cartoon but I still like what I see, I love when the anime villain has a cheesy infinite-loop combo to draw cards, and the hero turns it against him and makes him mill out.

I also don't think that YGO directly competes with MtG. YGO is the anime card game, if it were replaced it would be by another anime card game.

>> No.76955675
Quoted By: >>76958491

Magic the gathering is gay and for fat losers, I’ve seen the kind of people who play it at game stores. Yugioh is badass and has a dope anime that’s iconic as fuck. Everybody knows blue eyes white dragon, dark magician, the egyptian god cards, etc.. There are no iconic or memorable magic cards aside from black lotus which is only famous for costing way too much fucking money. There’s no heart of the cards in mtg either

>> No.76956122

Magic becoming WOKE ruined it for me. I was an all time Yugioh hater but now I play it and I have to admit I was wrong all along, this game is really fun.

>> No.76956327
Quoted By: >>76956789

Yu-gi-oh really isn't popular anymore, it has residual popularity because it had an anime and anime coom art on the cards, magic however never killed it outright because Mark Rosewater insisted from the very beginning on making blue and green the strongest colors in the game and if you are a person who does not enjoy those colors then there's no reason for you to play magic at all.
EDH solved this somewhat though, thankfully (which is ironically why it's become more pushed than standard) but it's not hard to see why yu-gi-oh was able to create an audience for itself despite magic existing. I mean at the end of the day people will pick what they like and we see that now in the digital space
People still play magic arena despite hearthstone existing
People still play legends of runeterra despite arena and hearthstone existing

>> No.76956583

Look at the speed duel packs. They're dumb cheap and come in 2 and 3 starter deck packs. It's a slightly different format that I've fallen into pretty hard.

>> No.76956789
Quoted By: >>76958472

>Yu-gi-oh really isn't popular anymore

Are you fucking nuts? It's more popular now than when the anime was out.

>> No.76957743

It unironically wasn't and I'm actually glad the thread seems to be relatively civil, definitely nore than I was expecting.

>> No.76958472

People who say this usually mean "if I don't see my friends playing it it's not popular" despite numbers telling them otherwise.

>> No.76958491

The heart of the cards is everything.

>> No.76959388
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Because the world is bigger than just the United States, anon. It's true that magic is top dog here, but Yugioh is more popular almost everywhere else. MTG gets fucking mogged in Japan and is sub 5th place in market share regularly.
As to why yugioh is so popular and better games failed? That's because yugioh had a gigantic kickoff in early momentum when it launched and it never dropped it. It was one of the first on the scene, it became the default trading card game alongside Magic. Stores know this and are almost guaranteed to host both. This is why I think Magic is too big to fail as well, there is simply too much momentum behind it for it to actually die.

>> No.76961415

Nobody plays TCGs for the gameplay. Maybe some do, but they are not a relevant share of the player base by dollars spent. The games don't need to be GOOD, they need to be JUST playable enough that some people will keep buying every time a new set comes out. Banning broken cards has less to do with encouraging healthy metagames than it does with pushing people to buy the next product.

As others have stated: YGO has an anime that drives popularity in the card game. That's the beginning and end of it. Weebs and black people want generic anime on a piece of paper with four digit numbers. Investorfags and the sort of person with a wall of funko pops and wears a gay pride badge despite never having been romantically touched by a member of either sex just want a shiny piece of paper with their favorite pop culture reference on it.

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